#67: Marc Dragon Managing Director of Reefknot Investments

Marc Dragon is the Managing Director of Reefknot Investments. Reefknot Investments is a joint partership between Temasek, Singapore’s state owned fund, and the global logistics company Kuehne + Nagel.

Discover more details here.

Some of the highlights of the episode:

• How Temasek and Kuehne + Nagel’s partnership started
• Three main focus areas: Artificial Intelligence, Digital Logistics, and Trade Finance. 
• Why Marc invested in the AI startup, Prowler.io
• Reefknot’s ecosystem in five years
• The shortage of data scientists
• “Follow your passion and build your capabilities and ecosystem around your passion.”

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Transcript

Radu Palamariu:   0:00
Hello and welcome to the leaders in supply chain podcast. I am your host. Rather problem. Are you managing Director of Ellicott Global? Our mission is to connect the supply chain ecosystem by bringing forward the most interesting leaders in the industry and is my pleasure to have with us today. Mark Dragon, managing director of Reef, not ventures. We've not ventures is a joint partnership between Tomasic, which is Singapore State Owned Fund, and the global logistics company Conan Ah Go. The firm is based in Singapore but is looking for companies around the world that are raising their Siri's A or B around with a focus on high growth technology companies pushing your frontiers within the supply chain and logistics space. Mark has more than 20 years in the I. C T and management consulting industry in Asia, mostly focused on the areas of analytics I t on supply chain solutions. He started his career in Deloitte and IBM for many years and then transitioned in several rows in venture capital, entrepreneurial setups and and he's also very actively involved in the startup community in ASEAN, in Asia, in general, being a mentor and advisor to different startups he took over, if not about a year ago with a vision to build a global eco system of high value partners who will bring out its support to help accelerate startups in tech logistics and supply chain Mark. Thanks for making the time a pleasure to have you with us today.

Marc Dragon:   1:23
Thanks for I do. And thank you for having me in this port, Cash. And maybe let's start

Radu Palamariu:   1:28
by asking you to tell us a bit about yourself. What drove you in your career to switch from doing consulting to being very actively involved in envy. See and start up

Marc Dragon:   1:38
world. Thanks. And also thanks for the introduction about 20 past years and industry starting

Radu Palamariu:   1:44
of sorts. You sound old.

Marc Dragon:   1:47
Best not. That will compare the hole in the street. Well, you know, when I first started out in IBM in technology, these are the big MNC is right. So start on a very big MNC perspective on even in the light as well, consulting for clients across the region as well on. And as I looked out into the space, I found that there were a lot off even about 10 years ago, right? There were startups there was starting to challenge the norm, you know, in the supply chain, largest exam technology industry. And this was re back 10 years ago, before the term Big data was actually came out. So I saw sense that kind of, uh you know, that change. And I felt that I wanted to do something impactful other than being in a large company and running a business unit with a larger organization. That's why I came out to do my startups, right? And it's only when you do your own startup, then you realize the pain and the difficulty that startup would face, right? Everything from, you know, fund raising, cash flow, hiring for scaring projects, you know, delivering projects and stuff like that. So So it was a interesting yet painful process, right? For the first couple years when I did my start up my first startup in the big data space. Um, when I did my 2nd 1 be a play lot Learnings co founded this analytic start up, you know, and we grew it quite match. And it was it was a quiet a majority of quiet like woman. Um, after that, after doing that, hope big multinational thing on doing that start up from scratch to a certain size. There was a gap that I felt that I had wanted to, you know, scratch, which was really bringing company toe. I peel, right. So therefore, you know, I the opportunity to leave, you know, on is a Pacific. A supply chain technology firm is to see you for a few years on Dhe. Subsequently, when this opportunity came out, you know, to really be much more involved in a global startup space, You know, I jumped on there, right? So so long story shot. You know why the switch from a lot company into this VC space is Really I saw the impact early on of new business models and technologies, and I really wanted to be a key player to help the transformation of the industry initially in the small of those space hours in and us on Asia Pacific and now at the opportunity to do it globally and

Radu Palamariu:   4:46
grief. No rift not is a fairly unique set up because it's a partnership between a state owned fund we just a mask and a private logistics company which is called an aga one of the largest in the world. How did that happened? How did this partnership came about?

Marc Dragon:   5:03
Well, the I mean, first Tomasi, you know, with more intolerant 1,000,000,000 worth of a u. M. It's an investment from submitting fine by itself, right? Eso they're driven by their own, you know, uh, measurements right and key and being squarely in the writing logistics. A key leader off this globally, right? You know, I mean, the whole industry is basically looking at transformations in the industry. They're looking at business models. It's coming out right there, looking at new technologies. How can it be apply? Right. And I think it's just I kind of talked about how they got together, but ultimately they find itself, you know, is really looking at early stage business models and technologies, right? That would transform the industry. And and I think as part of this road, met men just bearing in mind way are not a CBC appear venture capital firm. You have driven primarily by returns, right? But the other key metrics that we look at, it's really you know, the ability toe support startup step transformed the industry, and there's very, very Keith it needs to be transformative. It needs to be differentiated, right? If a stat that comes up, you know, is what actually is great returns. But it is similar to a lot of the others out there. We are likely going to pass that also, not the one to bring up around. You know why the industry, you know and how we're looking at it, right? So So you know, the supplies in logistics industry is is really facing multi pronged pressures, right? There's creating huge opportunities for new business models and technologies is right. And it's not only a case where startups come up, disrupted industry and, you know, cure the incumbents are traditional folks, is not that kiss right is the keys. Where and now we're starting to see it right where it is then really value at that's created with these business models and technologies. Or is it, you know, and this value is it an incremental value? It, you know, productivity improvement, operation improvement, Or is it really changing fundamentally how the industry works in some certain areas? Right. And I think that is really what we're focused on, right? And to be very clear about, you know, investment, he says Indoor specific areas. Is it purely for operational improvements in productivity gains? Right, And if so, is incremental improvement Or is it more case off really transformative And things are happening that hasn't happened before, and the opportunities are dead. So I think, you know, with us focus on this base, you know? You know, we know that. I think the hope is that we can help our ecosystem partners and especially L piece right toe, identify more these very new opportunities. It's coming up. I

Radu Palamariu:   8:15
w as reading on your website that even even more focused and more specifically, you have three main areas of interest which are artificial intelligence. You have digital logistics is the 2nd 1 And as the 3rd 1 you have trade finance. I was actually curious why this three hour in a novice buzzword, missing is Blockchain or make it we can throw others automation. What? So why did you pick this three? A

Marc Dragon:   8:41
lot of nice words out there, right? There's a block tree and even i o t g you know, autonomous there's a whole drones. Okay, so it's a whole bunch off by stones being thrown out there. You know a lot of doors, bass, words, but they can be seen issue. No fundamental technologies are platforms to enables that. Then stuff right. What one technology be differentiated than the other and things like that, you know, You know, that's one part of it, right? So, um, we are not that kindof a VC firm where we will go so deep into lexie autonomous vehicles and, you know, lied us and stuff like that. We might look at it right, but enables is it requires a different type or deep tech. Perhaps longer term kind of BC is located now for us. You know, we look at it more from a solution, plastering perspective right on. We think about you know what areas that brought enough categories to be ableto, you know, because industry changes. But yet something stay the same, right? So I brought enough cat degrees for us to be able to capture some off the stuff that's changing and yet be able to zoom down and focus on some areas that the industry understands these terminologies. That's the first point. The 2nd 1 is really You know how these areas need to be able to support if new differentiated technologies and models. Right? So you know, it is not so much off broad general statements, but more specific ones, right? So even if he is, if you say things, i e I you know, we will not We will still go at least a few levels lower to see what kind of a I Right. Okay, so let's talk more about the solution here a bit later. And the area that reason off choosing these spaces is that, you know, it allows us to be able to focus and yet evolved thinking on a daily basis. Right? So Aye, aye. Evolves treated traditionally, you know, in the suppression larger six. Well, there was e I was equivalent to operations. You such right? Who are you mind forecasting, right, Andi? They're very traditional techniques indoors areas. Right. But why we actually put e r into this giant his bucket was because we felt that this area was right for change with new technologies coming up. Nice. Um, that's one. And in the digital largest experience, I mean, it's enough said right, there's a lot more those as coming out, you know, And these are these my purely be business models right at all. It might be technologies that enables business models our interests is more in the technologies that any most of business models rather than the business models by itself. Right on. The reason is this, right? Um, the core technologies or I p is actually the one that were Dr Differentiation and sustainability of the business model into the future is not a general business operating model itself, Right? General remarks can be copied. But if you have a core dead that holds everything together that kind of sort, really copy. So that call I P is the one that really looking for, right? Sometimes the quite he might be in the context off, you know, an enterprise software even write that looks at specifically data either collection of data or even, you know, creation of new data. Right? So So that in combination of enterprise software is something that we're looking at right? Things like, you know, Corr analytics, our predictive more those around enterprise software, right? And because data medical is also other, another model they're looking at in the digital

Radu Palamariu:   13:16
defines to If I'm to kind of trying to comprehend this in my own lands in a very simplistic example. Yeah, let's say I have 100 trucks and my competitors has 100 trucks. You know, someone 10 other competitors can buy 100 trucks, but But what you're after is that maybe as an example, that software that optimizes the deliveries optimizes the routes that will basically make that particular trucking company way better than all the rest. Because they wouldn't have the same software. Just as an example. This officer. Okay,

Marc Dragon:   13:45
I would take it a few levels more than that, right? I think it s, uh, not so much optimization because there's a lot of capabilities are there to love, you know, capabilities, optimize routes, for example. But, you know, if there is some specific I p around where the mine is really coming from, right, you know, ability to predict prices along Southern leans right ability to, you know, to predict capacity around Saturn leans right, you know, And then everything else are false in order. If you're you know, you're demand, you know, capacity. You know, Then the optimization happens, the back part optimizing back hard and the whole capacity utilization. And you're that kind of thing and you know, is it? Yeah, that that is the call piece that we're looking at, right?

Radu Palamariu:   14:43
Actually, you mentioned that you're not looking and optimize issues. Yeah, just the wrong eyes. My S

Marc Dragon:   14:50
O. So we're looking for that secret sauce, right? Rather than a general capability. So that's an additional six pieces, of course, treat finance. You know, we feel that treat finance is really an area where there's some solutions and capabilities that have included I mentioned before Incremental provide incremental changes, right? Treat finances potentially an area that, you know that is right for revolutionary change, you know, with his relation to supply chin and logistics. And the reason for this is this, um with greet, uh um, visibility off data. Right. And the trust in the data that's coming out right there will be re envisioned. There'll be new business models and capabilities and financing opportunities around financing for various players in the chin. Not only you know, the chain master and the first year supplies, but all true, you know, the second tier suppliers and detail guys know that that were previously underserved, right by the traditional financing organizations, right? A new business model who start the emerging all finance treat finances. Well, you know, it's not know only and comes off, you know, as consumers, for example. You know, we are faced with many options, right When it comes to e commerce. If you went by product, you know your order. And sometimes that might be option off, you know, a long term payment. Then one year you can have a thing with certain interest rate. Why can't that be the same for every other And the price up there, right? Yes. You know, I'll accept this on I, you know, And for this particular transaction, You know, I'm willing to get discounted really out of it and take the money now, that kind of thing, And you don't eat necessary lean into the d k Y c with me previously, right? But the data is available outside everywhere else. Toe ascertained that I'm actually good for that particular order. So trade finance, we feel, is going to be, you know, over the next couple of years, it will be a revolutionary change, you know, for guys to supply chain logistics, especially that's approaching. Odyssey's data is coming up.

Radu Palamariu:   17:16
Yeah, thanks for clarifying that. And I wanted to actually drill in the first investment that the investment that you have done right, which is in an AI ai startup called prowler dot io, which is an ai ai platform for decision making. And it's called Google and Long Story short. They make organizations all the help organizations make better decisions in financial markets in logistics and ride sharing. Smart citizen robotics. So I think the round was about 24 million Series B and you contributed. But also your ecosystem partners contributed to which was the Singapore Government Innovation plant. More s to innovate. I think you had the Atlantic Bridge. Are you, Capito? Tense and holdings and some other participated. So maybe tell us, how did you how and why did you choose this particular start up? And you know it'll be the story around it. Oh, um,

Marc Dragon:   18:15
I think I'll go back a little bit too. Operations, we such right? And the whole traditional way off industry looking at it. And this was several years back. So so yes, back. You know, when I was leaving that regional technology suppression technology from, um you know, I was not convinced that you know the traditional ways off, you know, optimization waas optimal right in the first place. You know the ability to do Marty Moore, Multi north. Marty. Tia, you know, optimization was really not there. Right? And and part of it wasthe, yes, teeth and stuff. But also, part of it was the meth and the technologies To be able to do that the moment you hit, you know, X amount of notes. Are this off? Solution soft breaks out. Um, so I was actively on the lookout for someone, but, you know, and generally there was some knew I wasn't new, But there's new thinking around. Different more Does that solve came up, but it wasn't really applying industry. It was just math models, universities and stuff like that. So there's a several years back. So when I was introduced to a prouder right early this year, um, you know, I was quite excited because they showed, you know, that by using theDDP, I probably stick model, you know, with reinforcement learning capabilities, you know, they were able to, with less data, have better results than the traditional methods on. They've proven this impure cease with some large clients you know that they will give more between percent accuracy rate compared toe trick. How a traditional? Um uh, optimization and forecasting solution would do so. You know, with that, you know, and that was because the core models are different. So with that, you know, we found that I was I was excited to be able to find them and let an opportunity to be able to co invested this because nowadays, for a very good start, ups is not a case off. You know, um, them necessarily looking out from investors, Percy. But more and more case off them, choosing which investors they will allow, you know, to be packed off the off the horses, them in the company. So it's the other way around, especially for the good ones, you know? So So we were actually very optimistic that with their new techniques, it can be quite revolutionary. 40 industry, and especially now where, especially in a macro economic environment, there's so much dynamic stuff happening, how the companies react to it and stuff like that. And that's exactly where the models come in. Because you might not have data around the new stuff that's happening, right? but you still need a result, and you still need to be dynamic. And that's where they come in to help those planning and allocations and pricing decisions.

Radu Palamariu:   21:55
And I guess a key question that would be on the minds off a lot of our listeners would be How do you decide which start up to invest? Okay, in this in this case, we simply speak specifically about this one, but and you know, this tens, hundreds, thousands of startups that should fasten. Right? So what's was that? Crux was the gist of that. How do you make that decision?

Marc Dragon:   22:18
We haven't reached that thousands of start that story passed on, but I can see it's hundreds. You're exactly right, s o. I think the number one treat kids criteria is really the investment returns Street forward right on. That's relatively straightforward to the other two things. Right that the second is, you know, it needs to potentially have a capability, be it i p or technology to potentially be transform. Transform me. Therefore, industry so so that this is a big word and and we spend in we've not. We spent a lot of time thinking true about business models and how you know those solution areas. How is it changing? How is the industry changing with indoor solution Here is that we're focused on And how sudden start ups, you know, can potentially with their capabilities transformed that that small little solution here they were looking at so transformative is very important for us, and that the area is is a bit more, um, it so it shows our out propensity to be a bit more active in our investments, right, which is the ability to actively support them to go. Right. So we're not one of those investors, you know, for better or for worse, but not one of those investors that you No way. We're just invests. You know, we get probably company, and we'll sit back and relax and let them run. We're not right. Going back to the vision off her supporting companies and helping them grow and helping industry to transform. Right. Um, we would like to actively support these startups to transform the industry and to grow. So what you see is that you know of other initiatives that might sound ancillary to this, but, you know, bringing ecosystem partners together, you know thinking about Southern spaces within supply chain logistics, right? Oh, that actually comes together during an investment. So when we invest in company generally, like the proud example, for example, right, you know, we would expose them to our industry, Equal system partners. If it makes sense, it is valued contribution right on. These ecosystem partners can be shitbird bogus companies, you know, can be, you know, other investors or even individuals. Right? That might have, um, strong capability used to support those startups. In some cases, it might be a case where you know, the status would like to expand into a region and in it, you know, to have very strong individuals. Right. Then we would bring our ecosystem partners to help to support them indoors. School first. Well, yeah, in

Radu Palamariu:   25:23
terms of the startups that you see and in terms of the common mistakes that you see especially, I mean, I'm guessing again. So hundreds not guessing hundreds of people have pitched to you.D o you see certain mistakes that they make even Maybe it can be business models. That can be the way. The structure, it can't be the way they pian should. I think that can be relevant. Also, both for startups is well, this corpus that Listen to this.

Marc Dragon:   25:47
Yeah, um, I think I wouldn't really call it mistakes, right? Our answer, in a different way, are uncertain terms off. You know what we're looking out for, right? And whether or not we invest or whether or not we like it, You know, this is what we typically looking out for number one to be clear about your proposition and differentiation. Right? So some start ups, you know, generally they might be very tech heavy, you know? But really, what is it that your customers are looking for? What cup problems are you solving? How are you Different? How is your technology different from the next guy out there, Or is it the same? And if so, you know, enough said this. End of story, right? So that's number one. Be very clear about the proposition differentiation. Number two. You know, I think  that's a need for startups and maybe even extend the compass is well to be very self critical about the defense ability and the strength of your solution and your proposition versus other incumbents. And the new competition is coming up. You know this area. It is very, very key, right? It's one of those things where you know is a no yourself type of thing and really know yourself right and how? Who your competitors, right? Do you need to change your proposition? Do you need to change the technology or business model? Pivot right. And that is that It is. It doesn't need for something like a sense and respond, which is my point. So which is always says and respond and and hands on a daily basis, right from your discussions with you. If you start that discussions of clients, there's always new learnings coming in. How can you enhance your business? Model your technology? You'll go to market based on those individual earnings, right? You know that's the sense and respond peace and always enhance, enhance and hands right? So So those three pieces, you know, I think if the startups are very Kia and they care about proposition differentiation, self critical and being able to sense the respondent hunts, I think that's something that you know. It is part of what we're looking for, right, because we might like a startup at that point in time, But we must also be comfortable that one year down the road, You know, even with new competition coming, they can still be competitive. Yeah, so So those of the country, Adam, instead proposing. Okay,

Radu Palamariu:   28:32
what would you say that your vision for, if not, is five years down the line in terms of how well reef knot in the anything. But there's an important piece of this question. And there we've not eco system look like, Yeah, five years.

Marc Dragon:   28:45
So and good point. They brought that ecosystem as well. Um, in this space on a global basis, uh, when I see space means supply chain largest takes technology, VC firms. There's basically a handful, right? Uh, and on a global basis, so basically very, very few, but we're very focused. And for a reef knot in five years, I would like us to be the very clear global leader, right? In number one, identifying and two catalyzing. You know, the next generation's approaching technology need us. Um, way we will not spread as in in the sense that way. We don't intend to invest in many, many, many companies, but we intend to invest in a few, but the future we invest in, you know, we're looking for them to be really the sector leaders, the solution. There's so so that's that's very clear. So for us, we globally recognized us, and either in growing and helping and identifying these companies, right and the eco system that you mentioned. The vision is that with the ecosystem partners, this whole reefknot and ecosystem will come out as almost like a Lobo leading think tank type of thing. We think about new areas and solutions and opportunities within supply chain logistics. But this is more those technologies or whatever, have you? We spot them early, you know, and we support these areas off growth. So So I think that's the kind of vision that I'm looking for partners over the next five years.

Radu Palamariu:   30:42
Moving it to the talent and Human Resources side, and I just such such an important topic in general, the companies, but maybe even more so force for startups. And you've had your own startup. You  have led companies. Now you're a woman investing perspective. Obviously you have to look at companies and how they attract telling. What would you say are some of the key factors when when it comes to finding and attracting and retaining top talent in a start off.

Marc Dragon:   31:11
Yeah. So I think attracting talent of startups now is probably slightly easier than it worse, you know, maybe 10 years ago, right? Um, 10 years ago is still very much off, you know, uh, needing stability and that kind of thing. Really Big Corporates provide Now. Start ups tend to have a bit more on this love excitement, this opportunity to grow right both personally and potentially from a well perspective coming unicorn. So there's certain attractiveness inherently into start ups. For certain individuals, this suppressed by six point is around problems. Right? So challenging. Pat. Um, there's generally okay. It's cast Helen everywhere, from sales to leaders, whatever. But there's two areas that I feel that  there's a particular shortage in, uh, data signed. This is the obvious one, and specifically around the other scientists that are familiar with the suppression logistics problems. Someone number two. Um, it's actually good for that. Leaders product development, folks off leaders that can think around, you know, what is the what is the product or the solution that they are building that's relevant for the market. You know, the differentiation part of it and the pricing public all goes into it, right? But the product piece, I think, is very, very, very key because, you know, and that differentiates, you know, a service, as from from a products from and then also differentiates a successful, you know, start up with a good are and back law versus one that is always chasing from next You so So I think these two are the two key ones that you know that they're lot startups. Actually, ast few face challenges hiring, right, um, and that that area it's around, actually location because where the Talon recites might not necessarily be where the markets are. So the startups, we need to be very, you know, careful to manage. You know, that resource is especially since it's very scotch from source right across, you know, getting the right talents from the right places and addressing the markets that they have products best fit. So I think that's like those couple of challenging your is dead. You know, um, the status would tend to face anyone need to address

Radu Palamariu:   34:21
a pick up all them off extremely relevant. I'll pick up on the point with the data scientists and the product. Yeah, leaders, because we are currently in the process of figuring out the few searches exactly for that, and I can attest and confirm is the most in demand skill sets across. Actually, it would be across anything to do with, I would say, data scientists are probably in demanding an industry because pretty much data with Dr In Industry anyways. And he's driving at the moment and for the future. Where is the product? Definitely anything to do with tech they need. They need a good product wood product, people and that product. People are so scared because it's a combination off, actually a lot of common sense. Fundamentally, it's it's common sense and ability to put yourself in the shoes of the client and understand. Okay, yes, I have this product. But then, you know I need toe constantly refine, adjust to the to the realities of my customer, and the customer will be different depending on the market. So the more mark is, the more you know, the more customization of the product. Andi, everybody needs them. Everybody wants them. Is like you know, is that kind of rare commodity of Islamic commodity so human being up to roll. But it's incredible is, um,

Marc Dragon:   35:36
and this is an area that is not well understood by folks that haven't experienced it before. Right? So I came from your IBM environment is very very products entry environment. Yes, that service is. But you know, there's also Globo for that leaders you and there's rekia demarcation and line terms off what their roles and responsibilities. So there's one extreme right. The other extreme, you know, is really start ups just building stuff for what it finds asking for right. So, you know, a startup screwed. You need to be able to sense a growing sense of respond again, going back to sensing off what the customers are asking for. Two, actually where the vision already want to, what they want to build and stuff like that. So you know that kind off. I think you mentioned common sense, but I think we more in common sense right now. That needs to be a very good thinking around, you know, how do you put up times? What's the road met for it? What's the strategy for it? You know besides building this stuff and not a lot people understand that.

Radu Palamariu:   36:42
You see, it's a narc. It's an art, isn't it? Yes, I remember when When we weigh have this rule is a chief product officer and always in terms of finding the right field, we tend to ask us a bit line. You know how in your past when you hired somebody like this, how how did it go in and what was what was successful? And then the answer that we got was Well, actually, if I'm to think in my history and it was somebody that had been around for a while the executive see your level in like in my history. I the best that I hired was actually not a product it had come from. Operations had done a bunch of things that studied psychology, understood people really well had done P N. L. Rose down a bit of product, but then you know all these things together made her an incredibly good and talented product person. So it's really an art on the products. I don't. The data science itis is in some ways much more how to say surgical because you're kind of can track people. And what the product is a bit more of an art. So interesting. Interesting sharing. Final question from me, if you would be Oh, kind of given advice to people listening, Looking back at your career, looking back at what you've done, What would you say was some of the most a successful or useful pieces of advice that you've gotten that have helped you the most?

Marc Dragon:   38:04
Yeah. So not so easy to us. Um, maybe I would, uh, I think the combination of a few things right, but first and foremost and central to it all is actually for doing your passion. So falling a passion, it might sound like a gin generic statement. Yeah, but but I think you need to wrap around a few things around here, right? So, number line. It was just, you know, be veal about it, right? You know, can your passion make money? You need to survive So, Carrie thing. But you know you know, how good are you of assistant? Next other guy, right? That kind of thing, you know, and green. But the sense in this pond you have to apply back to your individual self. A swell, right? Really? Knowing yourself on dhe and, uh, you know, and most of part of it is to be aware off the individual role, your individual in the grand scheme of things. And that might change from time to time. So, for example, you know, I was fortunate enough. I'm passionate in the supply chain and technology. Space is space opinion for a very long time. And, you know, and because of that passion, I mean, folks, their passion about this, an industry we know right and be and you can see it on. And these folks, you know, constantly read stuff. You know what's happening on the day to day visit, and to think about it on a day to day hour, hour to hour basis. That is not possible without passion. Right? So with passion, that becomes a central part of it, but really around it, you know, you need to Then think about OK, where's my place? In the mall? Can I influence my small little part of it, right? And if given other opportunities, you know, maybe I can influence a bigger part of it. But again, going back, You know, I think Central Point that's, you know, follow your passion and build your capabilities around your passion and your equal system around a passion and with like minded people. You know, it would just be a very positive kind off cycle and just get better and better.

Radu Palamariu:   40:20
Mark, Thank you so much. Appreciate the the time. Good luck in Jenny with with if not I would encourage anybody listening that is interested and curious to look you up to look up if not to pitch Mark. Maybe on Lincoln. See, I mean, first listen to the podcast carefully, then Then pitch mark on. Yeah, but like, you know that you want to really thank you

Marc Dragon:   40:42
very much for you. And thanks for the opportunity. Thank you

Radu Palamariu:   40:45
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